Kevin Iole: "The Dana Whisperer" Breaks Down the Truth Behind Combat Sports Media

Legendary combat sports journalist Kevin Iole—often called the 'Dana Whisperer' for his unique insight into UFC's Dana White—joins us to reveal the untold stories behind his career. We dive into the shifting media landscape, his nomination for the International Boxing Hall of Fame, and how he balances critique with respect. Want to know what Kevin really thinks about the UFC Hall of Fame and the future of combat sports? Tune in for an insider's perspective on it all!

Follow him on Youtube and check out his Website:

• keviniole.com
• https://www.youtube.com/@KevinIole

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Transcript

Jax (00:01.491)
All right, you guys, I don't even know how to start this interview, man. I'm super privileged and honored to be talking to somebody who is revered and renowned in the space that I'm trying to be in as far as MMA, combat sports, journalism, and just talking heads and just being a person that knows what they're talking about when we're talking about this stuff. So I got Mr. Pushback himself, Kevin Ioli.

on with me on the making a walk pocket podcast. First of all, how are you doing? Welcome to the podcast.

Kevin Iole (00:37.422)
Well, thanks, Antwyn. I appreciate you have me. I'm doing great. Appreciate you being here. And I always love to see people trying to branch out. And I admire you for doing what you're doing.

Jax (00:49.171)
Cool, I appreciate that, I appreciate it. So, kind of digging right into it, like obviously like I alluded to, you've had an incredible career thus far and you're still going, still doing new things and making waves in combat sports and you're known for analysis and critiques of fighters and fights and which kind of, the first question that kind of popped into my head when you said that you would do this was,

How do you draw the line between constructive criticism or constructive critique and outright criticism when it comes to fighters, promotions, promoters, fans, whomever? How do you draw that line?

Kevin Iole (01:32.898)
You know, I never make it personal, number one. So no matter what, whenever I say, whatever I say, whether it's good or it's bad, it's never personal. So when you do that, then usually if we're talking criticism, it's usually constructive criticism because, you know, you're just talking about, hey, what is this person missing? You know, I love both boxing and MMA.

And, you know, especially boxing, you we see MMA still rising, you know, boxing is kind of on that, you know, shaky. So I like to point out, like, especially when I talk boxing, some of the problems, because I feel like if we fix the problems, people are going to love the sport like I love it. And so when I critique somebody, when I write my opinion, I owe it to the audience to say what I saw.

whether it's the broadcast is terrible or the broadcast was great or the fighter was terrible, their fighter was great. And I think that the reason that they would come back to me and the reason whatever following I have built over my years in this business would be because people know they're going to get my honest opinion and they're going to get my take rightly or wrongly. They may disagree with me, but if they know that you're giving them your best honest opinion, they will respect that.

Jax (02:56.999)
Yeah, that's a great answer. Which kind of leads me into the way that things are viewed today because obviously we're in a changing landscape when it comes to just media in general. Recently on the basketball side, we saw ESPN letting go of Zach Low, a senior writer for basketball. And we're seeing a lot of media outlets do weird things, at least from the outside looking at it, it's weird.

Kevin Iole (03:24.205)
Yeah.

Jax (03:25.992)
So as these things evolve from the traditional outlets to YouTube creators, podcasts, non-traditional platforms, how do you feel about the way the landscape is changing and like how do you see people maintaining journalistic integrity when the landscape is changing so much?

Kevin Iole (03:46.19)
Well, that's the big thing, right? mean, I think there's a lot of people out there that are doing a lot of great work. know, if like, I am not jealous of the space. I welcome new people and new voices into the space. think that's what I love about the internet, right? It's, it's democratizing. gives everybody a voice. Now, not everybody deserves a voice. Let's be honest here. You know, people

You know, some people, they don't know what they're talking about. And, you know, maybe they'll say that about me, right. But, you know, they don't know what they're talking about. They don't. Ethics is a very big thing, right. You know, they don't they don't adhere to the same journalistic ethics that we adhere to. Right. And that becomes a big problem. But, you know, for the large part, I love it. I think that there's a lot of people that do, you know, a lot of really good work. You know, and I'll give an example.

and this is just one of many examples. There is a guy that I had never seen him, I had never heard of him. He has a YouTube channel, MMA Joey is his name. And one day somebody sent me a message that he criticized me. And I looked at his video that he did criticize me. And I thought, you know, he's right. You know, what he said was correct.

Jax (04:51.091)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (05:04.718)
and he was correct in terms of my production on YouTube and all those other things. I don't necessarily agree with that. He was correct in terms of the issue that I was talking about, but I reached out to him and I said, Hey, I appreciate your, you know, your take on what you said. And I have become a fan of his, right? I think he does good work. I don't always agree with everything he puts out there, just like, don't think he agrees with me, but Joey does really good content and he's

Creative and he's thoughtful and the production is good and when you get those kind of things, know from people you have to respect that right and so I do respect it and I like it and I think it's better for our sports, right? It's better to have a diversity of opinion, you know when I when I grew up, know, there was there was no minority journalists pretty much right? Well, you know, I grew up I went to high school in the 70s college in the 70s and 80s. There was no women

or very few women, there were a couple, but very few, there were no people of color doing it. And so the focus was very narrow and it was all seen through a white male's eyes. And that's not always good, especially when we're trying to talk about some of the issues that come up in these sports. And so I love it, the fact that people are creating now.

The one thing I don't like is that, people make fake stuff up and you get some of that stuff go out there. And then that creates a lot of trouble. They, you know, put fake rumors on social media and they try to play that gotcha game. And to me, that's not, not the way to go.

Jax (06:45.347)
Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. And it's interesting as far as, you know, again, referring to the YouTube landscape and the way that.

people put things out there as far as like MMA Joe you were referring to, he has a pretty large following. I kind of watched him from his infancy grow to where he is. And what's interesting is the fact that the people who are viewing this, viewing different content creators, they kind of side with content creators. Instead of watching what they produce and having an opinion on it, but not tying that to the person,

those opinions to a person. So for instance, like I am a fan of Dustin Poirier. If somebody doesn't like Dustin Poirier, they tend to like, okay, we're not going to watch this stuff, you know, that type of thing. And it's just a weird landscape where

things were different back when you get a newspaper thrown to your front door and you pick it up and you read the paper and this person says what they says, they say what they said and that's just what it is but you're still gonna read it next time a newspaper comes.

Kevin Iole (07:54.606)
Well, yeah, think about like when I grew up, okay, you now there was two newspapers in most cities, right? But you would pick up the newspaper in the morning. And if you wanted to read about the football game or the fight or whatever it was, number one, they had to have covered it, you know, and there are not a lot of papers even when I was growing up, we're covering boxing a lot more than than are now. MMA didn't even exist in those days. But you, you know, you only saw, what happened through that person's eyes and that person's, you know,

what their deadline was like, right? A lot of people don't recognize deadlines, right? Like we don't have them as much today because obviously, you know, the internet is a 24 seven, 365 thing. But back when there was printing presses and newspapers were going to press, you know, you had that issue. And then you had, you know, the television news, which, you know, the sports segment would be what, four or five minutes. And so they're, you know, they're trying to cover all sports and, you know, there's not a lot of stuff.

So now, you know, everything you could possibly want is at your fingertips. You know, you could find, you know, great reporters like Adam Schefter and, you know, I was going to say Adrian Wojnarowski, my friend, you know, he's no longer doing it, but, you know, you can find people like that that are telling you what's going to happen. There's a lot of reporters are telling you what did happen. And there's a lot of other reporters.

Jax (09:03.899)
Yeah, snakebite adventure now. Yeah.

Kevin Iole (09:13.14)
analyzing what just happened. And you can find that all over the place on, you know, online, on YouTube, everywhere. And that's, that's really good. And it makes for a healthy environment. And I think, you know, we appreciate different sports in different ways,

Jax (09:27.527)
That's true. That is very, true. So this kind of leads me to a different kind of a pivot of the question, but it's more about what's going on with you. A lot of people don't know this, but you were nominated or are nominated for the International Boxing Hall of Fame next year, which is a massive honor.

Kevin Iole (09:50.051)
Yes.

Jax (09:50.635)
I'm a big fan of Hall of Fame's. And it's interesting when I've talked to some of my contemporaries in the space and they, I don't know, they have a weird take or thought about Hall of Fame's when it comes to sports in general, but specifically about the UFC. But on this, as far as like you being nominated for what you've done in combat sports journalism.

How does that being acknowledged in that way make you feel and reflect on your career and how you approach things going forward?

Kevin Iole (10:23.406)
Well, it's not going to change how I do anything, Jax. I mean, it's going to I'm going to be the person that I am and I'm going to do what I do the way I've done it. But it was an incredible honor, you know, and it's something that I didn't expect. Right. Like I know a lot of friends that went into the Hall of Fame, both journalists and PR people and of course fighters, you know, but I never expected to be in a position where I would even be on the ballot, let alone, you know, get in and.

You know, I'm certainly not in the Hall of Fame yet. It would be an amazing honor if I were, it would be the honor of my lifetime. And I know this, if I ever get into the Hall of Fame, the first thing that is going to happen is I'm going to cry because I'm going to think of my father and how, you know, I have never been into awards or anything. You know, I've won a share, but I don't want enter writing contests or any of that stuff, because I don't believe that's what we're doing this for. Right. But a Hall of Fame is kind of a different thing. Right.

And my dad was always so proud. it used to embarrass me when I was a kid because he would be bragging to all his friends or people he would see about what I did and everything. And so my dad's been gone over 20 years now. And I just think that day, if it ever comes, it's going to make me think of him, which the nomination made me think of him, because I thought, hey, dad, guess what? Here we are. And this is really incredible.

And I'll cry when it happens, you know, because of him, you know, it'll mean it would have meant so much to him. And because of that, it'll make me think of him and that'll be a great thing.

Jax (11:59.761)
Yeah, like it's interesting. Like I watch a lot of, know, and pro football, like I love football. When the Hall of Fame calls the individuals that make it and you see them cry. And it's like, I don't know these people. Obviously I've watched their careers, but like I'm all tearing up. like, you know, because it's just, you see somebody's life's work and the culmination of that work.

Kevin Iole (12:08.61)
Yes.

Kevin Iole (12:14.381)
Yes.

Jax (12:25.809)
pay off and right in that moment. It's amazing to see and I really hope that that happens for you. That would be pretty dope. I mean, I'll cry. I know that.

Kevin Iole (12:34.028)
I appreciate that. That's awesome. Yeah. You know, I'll tell you this, what people don't know all the little things like, you know, I have, you know, back in the day when we had to send stories, you know, I've had days where I had to pull off at a seven 11 and use a pay phone and dictate, you know, stories over the phone to an editor. Cause you know, it was.

snowing so much and I couldn't drive, you know, through the snow. There was a whiteout and I'm having to cover a high school football game and I'm dictating it to an editor on the other end of the line and, you know, all sorts of problems that happen. You know, the Floyd Mayweather, Conor McGregor fight, right? I mean, maybe the biggest fight I ever covered. I don't know. You know, I wouldn't say that, but from a pay-per-view standpoint, right? And they kicked us out of MGM and I'm sitting outside.

outside with people leaving writing my story outside of Timo Borrini in Las Vegas, you know, and it was thank God it was a summer night, right? But I mean, just crazy, you know, the stuff. And so those are the things that you think about, like all the obstacles you had to overcome to get there, right? And sometimes it looks like you're never going to, you know, make it to the top. You're never going to, you know, accomplish or be recognized for your work.

And then that Hall of Fame day comes and whoever you are, know, all that, all those memories come flooding back to you.

Jax (13:56.107)
Yeah, for sure. that's kind of just from the outside looking in, that's kind of the thought process that I think that people have in those moments, which actually that brings up another thing. And obviously you've covered a lot of different events, a lot of different situations, but like what is probably not one, but what is a story or a scenario or an event that kind of sticks out in your mind that

is something that just, you just remember that time. mean, that's obviously one of them, but that kind of sticks out in your mind.

Kevin Iole (14:31.118)
Well, I think there's two in there, both boxing matches, you know, number one, and how can it not be the the bite fight, you know, when Mike Tyson beat Evander Holyfield, you know, that was just, you know, such a crazy night. Pete, know, and I don't want to get Floyd Mayweather mad at me, but people don't realize how big Mike Tyson was and is. And if Mike Tyson had fought in the same era as Floyd Mayweather, he would be the biggest pay per view star.

of all time, right? Tyson was just incredibly big. And you're talking about heavyweights and all this stuff. number one, I'm sitting next to Jim Murray, you who was one of my idols, the columnist at the LA Times, to me, the greatest sports writer who ever lived. And I'm freaking sitting next to him and I'm like, my God, I'm fanboying out. I'm trying not to, you know, look like a goof during the fight. And then, you know, when he got

Jax (15:16.283)
Thank

Thank

Kevin Iole (15:23.746)
bitten, you know, was hard. couldn't tell what happened at first. know, people at home are watching on TV and they have the benefit of replay and they have the announcers who were closer and who know, you know, better what's going on than we do. Excuse me. Even though we were close, you know, we don't have, we don't have that those extra angles. So you didn't know what was going on. And then, you know, afterwards, like all hell breaks loose and

Jax (15:42.867)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (15:49.282)
You know, I was going through the casino. was reports of gunshots in the casino and I saw people flipping over blackjack tables and I was calling into the newspaper. I was working at the Las Vegas review journal newspaper and I was calling in information and I'm standing there and there's a guy, there's a bank of pay phones, which of course, you know, you don't see pay phones anywhere anymore. I'm standing on a pay phone and I'm on the pay phone on the far right.

Jax (16:11.751)
Nope.

Kevin Iole (16:15.502)
And the guy on the payphone on the far left, I'm looking at him and he's got a gun sticking out of his belt line. And so I said to the editor I'm talking to, said, well, you know what? I'm going to call you right back. And it was like around two in the morning and we were just at our last deadline, right? The paper is going to be published at two 15, you know, the last edition, cause it was multiple editions. And so I said, I'm going to call you back. She's like, no, no, don't hang up. And I hung up anyways. And I ran to a different bank of payphones and she starts to yell at me.

Jax (16:39.815)
Thank

Kevin Iole (16:44.792)
And I said, I'm talking about all this stuff going on in the casino. And there's a dude with a gun in his pants standing right next to me. So I said, I didn't want to get him get his attention. So that would be number one. And then the other thing I guess would be the fan man incident. I don't know if you remember the fan man with Riddick Bowe and Evander Holyfield, but I am sitting there and from behind, all of sudden I see the people Bowe and Holyfield are fighting in the seventh round. you see the people.

across the ring and they're all acting weird and you're going, what's going on? We don't know. It was outside at the mirage and you don't know what's happening. And all of a sudden, just as I turn around like this, this guy goes shooting over my head and he goes and lands into, I think he crashed into the ropes, but he was right by Reverend Louis Farrakhan. And so Farrakhan's security people thought it was an attack.

Jax (17:33.299)
Yeah.

Kevin Iole (17:36.812)
And they're attacking this guy and they're bashing them on the head. That was in the days when the cell phones were so big and they're cracking them on the head with their cell phones and everything. And we have no idea what's going on. Right. And it was just like, so those two things, I think, I mean, there were so many of them, you know, of course I had the unfortunate distinction of being ringside for seven fighters who passed. And that was, you know, that's awful. And that's, you know, one of the worst things about this job that I've had to do that.

Jax (17:42.46)
Yeah.

Jax (18:00.243)
That's

Kevin Iole (18:06.008)
But those two fights and those incidents, think, you know, when I tell people about my career, those are always going to be very early on.

Jax (18:15.207)
Yeah, those are monumental. I remember those for sure. I was just a teenager when that was happening, but I definitely remember that. going back to Hall of Fame's. we got the International Boxing Hall of Fame. We got the Pro Football Hall of Fame, NBA Hall of Fame. And, you know, we've already we've just talked about how important Hall of Fame's are.

In looking at the UFC Hall of Fame and the Hall of Fame process, I guess if you can call it a process, how do you think that that compares to other sports? And do you feel that there's room and a need to reform that process on how inductees are chosen? And do you think that that will be an improvement on the sport overall to kind of bring some validity?

Kevin Iole (19:01.58)
Well, you I do. I think there's, you know, I think the problem is, you know, it's controlled internally. So it's a UFC thing as opposed to being controlled by neutral people like is in most Hall of Fame's, right? Now, Aunt Evans, who's no longer at the UFC, I think did a really good job trying to reform it a couple of years ago, and they made a lot of changes that improved it.

But I think, yeah, until it's not administered by, you know, to me, it's like the Pittsburgh Pirates Hall of Fame or the LA Dodgers Hall of Fame, right? You you're being picked by the team. You take that with a grain of salt, you know, right? But if it's if you're in the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame and you're picked by the Hall of Fame, you know, members who who have covered baseball for a long time and who get to vote, that's a totally different story. And so, you know,

I think someday somebody will probably create an MMA Hall of Fame. The problem I think that people have with that is the UFC has been so dominant in the marketplace, right? know, Pride at one point in the early days was ahead of the UFC, but then the UFC kind of passed it and there's been nobody that's really been close ever since, you know? And so the UFC is the big, and so there hasn't been this...

Jax (20:13.619)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (20:24.398)
impetus to start an MMA Hall of Fame. And, you know, I don't know if there ever will be, but, you know, I think there's somebody at some point down the road is going to kind of try to start that and honor people who just weren't UFC figures, but were overall MMA figures.

Jax (20:42.151)
Yeah, I definitely believe that there's a lot of people who didn't necessarily fight in the UFC, maybe like a fador, like fador deserves to be in some sort of hall of fame. People like that, that need to be recognized in that way. And even if it's just the UFC, it feels like it's just Dana's ring of honor. And Frank Shamrock should be honored. People like that should...

Kevin Iole (21:10.666)
I agree with that. Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more with you. you know, when that's the kind of thing like, you hey, I'm in the Nevada Boxing Hall of Fame and they put his excellency, Alashik in the Hall of Fame in this class this year. And while I have nothing against Turkey Alashik, when they put him in the Hall of Fame, he had never even been in Nevada. And he got in the Nevada Boxing Hall of Fame. And so when you have a Hall of Fame like that,

Jax (21:35.037)
Yeah, that's crazy.

Kevin Iole (21:40.204)
You know, hey, I was honored to be elected to the Nevada Boxing Hall of Fame. No doubt I was, but it's different given, you know, how the criteria is judged. And I think, you know, if you ask any, you know, Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor player, what would they rather have? Being the Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor or being the Pro Football Hall of Fame? you know, and so I think that's what the UFC Hall of Fame is, you know, kind of the Ring of Honor type thing.

And I think people, you know, if there was a regular Hall of Fame, would be something people would be into.

Jax (22:09.427)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (22:14.963)
Yeah, absolutely. So pivoting back to you, and I asked this question, it's kind of a sensitive question, but if you don't feel comfortable answering it or whatever. Cool. Nothing sensitive. All right. So after 17 years with Yahoo Sports, you were let go in December of 2023, which to me, again, outside looking in was a pivotal moment in your career. In September last month,

Kevin Iole (22:24.578)
Nothing sensitive.

Jax (22:44.167)
Yahoo brought in Ariel Hawani, another prominent voice in combat sports. How did you feel when you saw that shift and what were your thoughts on how the whole thing played out?

Kevin Iole (22:46.254)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (22:54.828)
Yeah, you know, I don't think the two were related, right? You know, after I think my I was laid off with about 50 people in December, maybe even more than that. There was a lot of us. were on a we got laid off on a on a Zoom call or Google me call, you know, and that was the one the only thing that really bothered me because I had 17 great years and a lot of my best friends in this world still work at Yahoo and I have nothing bad to say about Yahoo.

Jax (23:13.363)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (23:24.174)
The only thing that I thought was bad was the way they handled it, right? You we get all laid off and I was there. I was one of the most senior writers in Yahoo Sports. I think there was only two people who had been there longer than I had. And, you know, so I thought I deserved more than jumping on a call with 50 or 75 other people and being told you're being laid off. But I was happy. Like when Ariel started, I had no, you know, there was no jealousy on my part. There was no, you know, I was happy for him.

because, know, I know he was looking for something different. You know, he had been in Fox media, wasn't happy with the way that was going. And I'm not exactly sure the entire, setup, but I think he's got this independence where, you know, he's got a vertical and he's his stuff is appearing on Yahoo for a while, but I believe they only signed a one year deal, but I'm not, I'm not privy to the ins and outs of the deal. But the bottom line is I hope he's successful. Ariel.

is good for the business, has been good for the business. And he brought on a lot of really good people that are friends of mine. think Chuck Mindenhall is a fabulous writer. Keith Idek has been a longtime friend of mine who's doing boxing for them. So I have no angst, no ill will toward any of them. And I have friends all throughout the media, both in

combat sports and outside of combat sports and I'm happy for all of them when good things happen to them.

Jax (24:53.361)
Yeah, Chuck Mendenhall, man, I love that dude. He's so good. I wish I could see more of him, honestly. But you mentioned Turk Alashik, who undeniably, he's had a significant impact on combat sports, bringing high profile fights.

Kevin Iole (25:09.571)
Yes.

Jax (25:13.357)
and events to Saudi Arabia, Riyadh season, all of those things. How would you compare his influence to that of like legendary promoters like Adana White, like Don King in the UFC? Like, do you see similarities in the way that they were able to kind of shape the landscape or do you feel like it's completely different?

Kevin Iole (25:35.426)
Well, it's a little different in that, you know, he doesn't have deals with the fighters, right? Whereas, you know, Don and Dana and Bob Aram and whoever else you want to bring into the discussion, you know, they had contracts with the fighters that they were working with and are working with. you know, excuse me, I'm sorry. But Turkey, you know, has that checkbook and he's a big boxing fan. And so and he's a combat sports fan.

But I think people should not forget what they're trying to do. Like, yes, Turkey loves combat sports and especially boxing, but Turkey is trying to build tourism in Saudi Arabia and he's trying to make it a retirement destination for wealthy people. And that is especially for British people. And if you look at the sports that they are using in Saudi Arabia that are part of Riyadh season, auto racing, is

big with British people, golf, which is big with British people, soccer and combat sports. And those are all big in the UK. And I think that, you know, and there's nothing wrong with what they're doing. You know, it's a smart business strategy, but it's not because they love boxing or they love MMA. The one thing I know about Dana White and say good or bad, what you want about Dana.

Jax (26:38.333)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (27:00.014)
Dana freaking loves both boxing and MMA. He freaking loves it to his absolute core. And you know, he does what he does because of how much he loves the sport. He's running a business and he's trying to make his business as big and as profitable as he can. And so sometimes people disagree with decisions he makes. But Turkeys is running a business, but his business isn't combat sports. It's...

Riyadh and it's Saudi Arabia. He's part of the government. So that is the big difference, right? Like I respect Turkey. I'm happy that he's doing, you know, I have written in the past about the human rights issues in Saudi Arabia. You know, I kind of feel like you're just, you know, know, spitting into the wind now when you talk about it, because there's so much stuff going on in Saudi Arabia that, you know, it's like

Jax (27:29.297)
Hmm.

Jax (27:50.343)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (27:52.224)
what can you do? So I don't really talk about it anymore. I have done that, you know, quite a few times in the past, but, know, I think that, you know, you just have to understand what his, what his and what their intentions are when you, when you evaluate.

Jax (28:09.137)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I definitely think that, you know, since he's been involved, I mean, just from a fan perspective, like we've been getting the fights that we wanted. And not only that, the what I value in the UFC, like I come from when I started watching combat sports, person, the one person that got me into watching combat sports was Mike Tyson. Like I saw what he was doing and I was like.

Kevin Iole (28:35.554)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (28:37.553)
I gotta watch this, even if it's 20 seconds, I gotta watch it. And it grew on from that. And what I feel like he has done that the UFC does is build an actual fight card, not just one that's super top heavy where, yeah, there's legitimate fighters on the card, but they don't have the name value that some of these other fighters have. And he's been able to build actual fight cards. And I really, really love that about what he's doing.

Kevin Iole (29:06.51)
100 % agree. Yeah, I mean, I've written this a million times, right? But if boxing could be blown up and started over, it would be remade in the UFC image, right? Where you have everybody fighting under one banner and then you go forward that way. You know, the problem with boxing is, know, there's no barrier to entry to get into boxing to either be a promoter or to be a manager, right? And sometimes it's, you

Hey, this kid grew, I live next to a kid that happened to be a great boxer and his dad asked me to manage him and I became his manager and this person has no, you know, knowledge or, you know, understanding of the sport and the history of the sport and what it is. And so now, you know, he's, becomes a big player because his fighter is good. And then when his fighter is no longer good, he's out of the sport and you know, somebody else comes along and,

You know, and you just see that constantly. so, and a lot of times that prevents the fights from getting made. Now, it's kind of embarrassing if I'm being honest with you, Jax, that to see the promoters fall all over themselves with with Turkey, right? Because, know, they're kissing his butt because they want his money. And, you know, they would not have made most of these fights, but now they're getting paid big money and they're, you know, they're making it in the fights are happening.

Jax (30:18.588)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kevin Iole (30:30.924)
So it is good for us. The thing that I think is concerning, right, especially for the US, is these fights are all going off in the middle of the day, right? know, Joshua Ngannou was, you know, was on a Friday, but it was Friday morning. You know, the fight Saturday, better be a Bibl, that was, you know, a Saturday morning, Saturday morning, Saturday afternoon, depending on where you are in the US. And that's not a time that a lot of people here are watching the fights, right?

Jax (30:51.431)
Yeah.

Kevin Iole (31:00.386)
PFL has a pay-per-view this weekend and I think if I'm not mistaken is starting the main card starting 1 p.m. Pacific. know, UFC only has one or two a year that they do that with, right? So otherwise, you know, their Riyadh, not Riyadh, their Abu Dhabi card in a couple of weeks is going to start early. But for the most part, you know, UFC stays on the same consistent timeframe and they change the time and the other countries because they know the biggest market they have is the United States.

Jax (31:00.563)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (31:14.227)
you

Jax (31:29.852)
Yeah.

Kevin Iole (31:29.9)
And I think, you know, from a boxing standpoint, that's the one thing that concerns me, that we're going to have all the big fights, leaving the United States and then all starting at weird times. And that'll, I think that has the potential to hurt the sport.

Jax (31:44.519)
That's true. they would be going up against, depending on the time of the year, they would be going up against college football. And that's a tough sport to be trying to fight against when it comes to the US.

Kevin Iole (31:57.812)
Of course. Well, look at look at Saturday show was exactly that. Right. I mean, it was college football all over, you know, you know, if you're if you turned on ESPN plus to watch better be a Bible, you know, when you turn on ESPN plus and you look for it, how many college football games are on there? Right. And pretty soon college basketball is going to start up and then you're going to have the NBA going. And, know, we're going to have, you know, the World Series going on. And so you're going to have all these sports.

Jax (32:14.983)
Yeah.

Jax (32:24.211)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (32:25.666)
that you're competing against and NFL is going, you know, now how many days a week, right? They have games on all these different days. You know, it's tough. I think, you know, I always would like to see the show start a little bit earlier Eastern time, but not as late as they do start because you want people not to have to stay up till two in the morning to watch the great fights, right? But you don't want them to also...

Jax (32:31.293)
Yeah.

Jax (32:50.621)
Yeah.

Kevin Iole (32:52.034)
You know, they're at the beach on on a summer afternoon and there's a fight going on at, you know, 11 o'clock in the morning. It's going to it's going to, you know, that's why a lot of these shows don't do well from Saudi Arabia on the pay-per-view.

Jax (33:04.839)
Yeah, no, that's a good point. That's a good point. So.

Jax (33:11.347)
Looking at it from kind of a bird's eye view, MMA has come a long way from being unregulated in a lot of states to really becoming kind of a staple of major sports. Since the pandemic happened, it really has blown up. And just being on ESPN, I believe that was probably a goal initially. And now it's recognized as one of the-

Kevin Iole (33:22.796)
Yes.

Jax (33:36.671)
you know, maybe not the core four, but I mean, in my mind is the core four, you know, of sports in the US. So given the growth that they've had over this period of time, what do you think are the next steps to further enhance the legitimacy and recognition of the sport on a broader sense?

Kevin Iole (33:57.56)
Yeah, good question. mean, I think one of the things we're starting to see happen, you know, it's really two things. Kids are training in MMA to start now, right? You know, so back when Dana White took over and for a long period of time, you know, they were wrestlers or they were jujitsu players. And then they, they went into, you know, MMA when they were done with that. They're training in MMA now that's raising the quality of the overall sport.

But also what happened, you know, the demo, right? So in 2000, they found that demographic was 18 to 34 year old males. So now that's 25 years ago. So those people that were 18 to 34 are now, you know, 43 to 59, and they are MMA fans and their kids are MMA fans. And I think that's the next thing, right? Because now

you grow up with it, right? Like whatever sport you followed or I follow, most of us got it from somebody close to us, our fans, you know, usually our fathers, but, know, if somebody close to us was a fan and that's how, how it worked. And I think that that's, you know, something that's going to benefit them in the future, because we're going to see so many people, you know, learn the sport and become fans of the sport from their

Jax (35:03.603)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (35:22.466)
parents and then they'll pass it along to their children.

Jax (35:26.323)
Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. And that's happening in my household now. My kids are, they know even the...

Kevin Iole (35:30.914)
Yes.

Jax (35:37.191)
the people who are fighting on the prelims, they're familiar with what they do. And so as opposed to when I was young, I knew every member of the Pittsburgh Pirates. I'm in Dallas, why would I know that? So yeah, no, you're absolutely right. It's starting to filter down to that second generation. So I can definitely see that. So you mentioned something earlier, and I kind of want to dig into this.

you know, as far as current events are concerned. So Better BF fought Bival on Saturday for the Undisputed Light Heavyweight Championship. And I would say that it was a controversial decision to some. But like, what are your thoughts on the fight? And then from a more panoptic perspective, what do you see is the difference between a close fight and a robbery?

Kevin Iole (36:31.814)
it's interesting. Like I felt that was a close fight, not a robbery, right? I thought the appropriate score in that fight, I had Bivel winning seven to five. And I thought really the appropriate score was either six, six or seven, five Bivel. But if you push, you can say, okay, you know, there was some close rounds. Seven, five either way or six, six would have been, you know, kind of that. So as long as you're in that sort of, you know, circle of scores, you're right.

to go to eight four for Arthur and say to Mitri only won four rounds there. think that is really pushing it. And I think that judge.

I think he missed something. power is scored in the fights. And I wasn't there. And sometimes that's one thing that doesn't come across on TV, right? And you did hear Bival talk about the power that better be up through.

But I agree with you that, you know, there's a difference between close fights and robberies. And I don't think that was a robbery. I disagree with the outcome at the end of the day, but I do think you can make the argument that better be of one the fight. I don't agree with it, but I think you can make the argument, but you can't make the argument that he won eight, four, nine to three. know, nobody that I know had it nine to three. But when you're asking how do I define a robbery? Well, that would be a robbery, right? Because now at that point, you you just.

Jax (38:02.705)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (38:04.662)
You know, you're not giving the other guy any credit whatsoever.

Jax (38:09.137)
Yeah, totally agree. And I had Beville win in that fight as well. Speaking of another close fight, while we're talking about these close fights, how did you score Pennington versus Pena?

Kevin Iole (38:21.366)
I had Pennington winning that fight. gave her rounds 1 4 & 5 and She won 4 & 5 but she did not win round 1 according to the judges. I kind of thought round 5

Myself was fairly clear for her And most of the media that I talked to I don't want to talk for everybody in the media But the people that I spoke to in the aftermath of the fight Did have Raquel winning that fifth round? But yeah, that was you know But I you know, they the first round they gave to Juliana won the first three rounds of the fight So basically Pennington had a meter to knock out going into run four. She didn't know it

Jax (39:07.859)
Yeah, that's, I definitely had a pending thing when I fight, but I could see where they were going with, know, round one, there wasn't a ton of ton of action. So I guess you can give it to Pena, but I don't know, man. I was kind of upset with that decision, but that's just my inner love for Raquel and her story and you know, her getting there.

Kevin Iole (39:10.01)
I don't man, I was kind of upset with that decision but that's just my opinion of Raquel and her story. Raquel is a great person, mean so you feel bad like you know the one good thing about MMA is there are so many good people right

Jax (39:33.553)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (39:39.23)
And I mean, so many good people and you run into very few jerks in the business. And, you know, both of them are great. But Raquel is just a special person. Right. And so you feel badly for her because she struggled her whole career. You know, she was five hundred for a lot of her career. And then she gets on this hot streak, wins the title and her first defense. You know, it would have been nice for her, you know, if you're looking at it from her standpoint.

Jax (39:58.621)
Yeah.

Kevin Iole (40:07.53)
if she gets that win, because now she's going to get the big payday against Kayla Harrison. Instead, she loses it and she got to start to climb back over again.

Jax (40:11.42)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (40:15.271)
Yeah, no, it sucks. So another fight that you mentioned a moment ago, Max Holloway versus Ilya Toporya. So obviously Max is gonna try to derail the hype train that is Ilya Toporya. What do you believe will be the key difference that ultimately determines who wins in the fight?

Kevin Iole (40:19.65)
and notify the church.

Kevin Iole (40:26.16)
Yeah, that's right, you know, that's an interesting one I mean I have to think that Holloway's chin is going to stand up, you know You know, he got dropped for the first time in his career against Gage in the last fight

and there was a flash knockdown and he was up and he was okay. Toporia has that great power but I you know I lean toward Max but I think it's going to be his chin. We know Toporia you know is a power puncher and he's a good boxer but I think this fight is going to be determined by the chins.

Jax (41:17.063)
Yeah, I agree with that. I watched back a couple of Ilya's fights and I can't find a hole. I mean, obviously Max knows what he's doing. You know, I'm a big supporter of Max and what he's done, but that's a tough test. That's a really tough test. I lean Max because of his experience, but that's a really tough hill to climb.

Kevin Iole (41:20.33)
and I can have a couple of videos fight.

can't find a hole. I mean, obviously Max is doing great. I'm a big supporter of Max, but he's done with it. That's a tough test. I lean Max because of his experience.

It's really tough to deploy him. Ilya's quick and he's got sharp boxing and no matter how good your chin is, the punches that hurt you the most are the ones you don't see coming. And if he gets Max with something that Max doesn't see, can he stop him? I think he can. Is it likely he stops him? I don't think it is, but you know, he does have that possibility. So that's something that you always have to watch for in that fight.

Jax (42:06.067)
That's true, that's true. All right, so to finish this up, I wanna play a little game. It's called This or That. So I'm gonna give you two options and you can pick whichever one of those options that you want. No rules on why you pick the option. We'll talk about it afterwards, but you pick whatever you wanna pick. Cool, all right. So the first question, Pittsburgh Pirates or Pittsburgh Steelers?

Kevin Iole (42:32.398)
Come on Pittsburgh Steelers

Jax (42:36.867)
Why the Steelers?

Kevin Iole (42:39.463)
You know, I love baseball, but I'm a huge NFL fan. And when I grew up, most of my dad's life, the Steelers sucked, right? And I used to go with him to Pitt Stadium to watch the Steelers play. And they were awful. And then, you know, in 72, when I was 13 years old, they turned it around and they started winning. And, you know, the pirates were good for much of my early life. So it was no surprise, right?

But the Steelers try to put a good team on the field, right? The Steelers care. The Pirates owner is a bozo and he spends nothing. And the Steelers, you know, I hey, they haven't won a Super Bowl in a while, but I saw yesterday on Instagram, I think it was yesterday or maybe the day before, the Steelers have gone the longest of any franchise in the NFL without a losing record. 2003. So over 20 years since they last had a losing record.

they always are trying to compete. And if you're at least trying to put a good team on the field, you're going to have my support.

Jax (43:44.253)
That's a good way to look at it. And I will say, you know, a lot of those times in the 70s, obviously I wasn't around for it, but they were beating my team, the Cowboys, which, you we have our own struggles. I hate it. All right, so next question. Muhammad Ali or Sugar Ray Robinson?

Kevin Iole (43:52.77)
Yes, I loved it.

Kevin Iole (44:06.09)
Okay, so it depends on what you're asking, but you you said I can decide on my own. know, Muhammad Ali is my favorite fighter, my favorite athlete. You know, pretty much my favorite everything, right? You know, I love Ali. I've got pictures of Ali all over the place in my in my house here and behind my, you know, my backdrop. I have all these stuff. The greatest fighter of all time is Sugar Ray Robinson, no doubt. But if I

I can pick and put my criteria, my favorite Muhammad Ali, no doubt.

Jax (44:39.452)
I agree, I think that Sugar Ray Robinson is the best boxer of all time, but Muhammad Ali is one of the best people of all time.

Kevin Iole (44:47.903)
incredible person.

Jax (44:50.035)
All right, so here's another one. And I've seen you dip into this with George, but YouTube live chat or writing a column during an event on Press Row.

Kevin Iole (45:08.164)
Interesting I guess doing my columns, you know, I think that That's what I do. Like I'm trying to transition and do more video because I know Less people read and I'm trying to be as current as I can be But I'm I'm a writer and that if if I am blessed enough to go into the Boxing Hall of Fame it's gonna be because of a writer not because of my YouTube channel and

Jax (45:32.531)
you

Kevin Iole (45:34.27)
And so that, I would say that I like them both and I love talking to the fans, right? I do love that. But having said that, you know, if I had to pick, I would say writing a column on deadline that, know, that's just there's nothing like that.

Jax (45:51.667)
There's just so much pressure, I feel like, to write it. It's just like, I gotta get it in between here, but I wanna say the things that I wanna say. Like, how do you get good at doing that? Like, that's so difficult.

Kevin Iole (46:03.244)
Well, it's different now Jackson it was you know for most of my career, you know Even when I was a Yahoo like so when I was a Yahoo, right? We there would be a USC pay-per-view and we would determine okay, what stories am I gonna write after the fight and they wanted Quick stories immediately after the title fights ended. So

Sometimes the neighborhood won other fights, but let's just say there was two title fights at the end Let's say it was like UFC 307. So Pennington Pena and then you've got Pereira and and roundtree So I would have to write like four to five hundred words on the Pennington Pena and have that in before the next fight started so I have you know what six minutes seven minutes and As I'm getting older and I mentioned to you

You know, I'm hard of hearing. And when you're in the arena, it's harder to understand the microphone from the floor than it is from the audience. Right. And so, you know, I'm trying to hear the quotes of the fighters, what they're saying. And sometimes you don't get it and you still have to write 400 words and turn that in. Now that I'm on my own, I can do what I want to do. Right. And so, you know, and so Saturday was a great example.

So better be a Bivouz over. I really wanted to write a column, but as I got done watching the fight and I came upstairs to work, I said to myself, I am going to make my video recap first on YouTube and then try to use that. I'll put that in my story and drive people to kevinaioli.com so they will read my story as well. until like if I was at Yahoo would have been completely the opposite writer anywhere else. It would have been completely the opposite. I would have done the written piece first.

in the video later. now I don't have the deadline pressure, but here's what I do notice. like I messed up at UFC 304. I can look on my website to see how many people are looking at my website at any one given time. So Bala Muhammad beats Leon Edwards in that fight. And I decided, you know, I wasn't going to write a quick running story. I was going to wait and just post my column, you know, after the fight.

Jax (48:11.048)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (48:24.765)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (48:24.8)
And while I was waiting for the press conference to start, I clicked on my thing and I saw there was a ton of people on my site. Now, nothing had been updated in a while, but those people were looking for my story, right? So they came to my site, they looked for my story. And then I waited for, you know, Dana White to show, for Leon to show and for Bilal to show. Then I wrote. Well, then by the time my story got posted, they had found the results and they did what they did.

Jax (48:35.591)
Yeah.

Kevin Iole (48:50.398)
my I missed out on the fact that all that traffic I could have possibly had. So I learned from that. Right. So, you know, they're like, I do have the flexibility now to write when I want to write and post whatever I want to post when I want to post it. But I you're aware of what people's habits are. Right. And that's so that's kind of the interesting thing.

Jax (48:56.946)
Yeah.

Jax (49:13.447)
very, very interesting. I think for YouTube, for sure, like when it comes to timing, the things that you're gonna put out, you know, I do a lot of, not just interviews, I do a lot of video essays about different topics. And if you don't put it out at the right time,

Kevin Iole (49:25.154)
Yes.

Jax (49:32.111)
it's been covered all the ways that you thought about covering it. And I feel like a lot of that is similar when it comes to writing too, if you're not coming with the right topic at the right time.

Kevin Iole (49:45.174)
Now for me, like Saturday was a great example, right? So I sat here and I said, okay, I knew exactly what you were talking about. And it was earlier in the day. So the fight was over what four o'clock Pacific time where I am. So I felt like I had time that people would be able to see it. So I decided to do my video recap first because of what you just said, right? I knew people were going to be looking, hey, what's happening?

Jax (49:58.643)
Hmm.

Jax (50:07.687)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (50:10.826)
And I have a little bit of name in that space, so people might search for me. And if they see my name and I'm talking about the fight, then they're going to click on that. And then I hope that they went back to, you know, check my my story that I posted later. But yeah, you know, there's a lot. It's not just sitting here and, you know, as you know, spewing off the top of your head and going and, you know, from a video standpoint, I'm just learning and I'm really trying to make my site.

Jax (50:32.423)
Yeah.

Kevin Iole (50:37.794)
I promised people when I started, said, hey, my YouTube channel doesn't look good. It is going to get better. And, you know, when I started, I had my YouTube channel that had like 4,000 subscribers and I'm up to like 14,000 something now, you know, and I think that we're on a really good track because, you know, the production is better and I understand what is needed a lot more. We're still going to get better and it's going to improve even more than what it is now.

Jax (50:52.808)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (51:08.118)
But I think now I'm kind of in a good groove and I think it's just going to be a sell. I'm hoping to have a pretty significant growth before the end of the year and then make 2025 a really big year for my YouTube channel.

Jax (51:20.945)
Yeah, I'm positive that it will happen for sure. Last one. Demetrius Johnson or John Jones?

Kevin Iole (51:22.658)
Well, you know, I'd have to say John Jones for a number of reasons, know, depending on how we're talking, but I've had a great relationship with John from the time he came in UFC. So his first, let me say this story. His first fight in UFC was UFC 87.

I was in Minnesota covering that fight. That was in Minneapolis, St. Paul. not sure which one of the two it was in, but it was in Minneapolis, St. Paul. And that card, George St. Pierre fought on the card and Brock Lesnar fought on the card in the co-main event. And I was most blown away by this big six foot four, 21 year old guy or 20 year old guy, whatever he was at the time, you know, these big long arms and big legs. I'm going, Holy shit, this guy is incredible. Right.

And I made a point to talk to him. I went up to him after the fight and said, Hey, I introduced myself and I wanted to do an interview with him. And then John and I have had this like really interesting history together. So he used to call me, like I remember a story and I talked to him about this not long ago. He called me and said, Hey, what are you doing right now? I'm in Las Vegas. And I said, well, I'm just sitting at home. He goes, come to the mall and meet me at the food court. I want to be interviewed by you.

Jax (52:16.796)
Yeah.

Kevin Iole (52:45.89)
So I go to the, this was like late 2008 after that fight was before he fought on UFC 100. I go to the food court. go to Orange Julius and get a smoothie and a hot dog. And I'm sitting there talking to John Jones, right? And he was just like, you know, he was this good kid that was like in all of his surroundings. And all of a sudden how many people thought he was great.

Jax (52:46.011)
You

Kevin Iole (53:10.856)
Never had that kind of personal relationship with Demetrius. Demetrius, I always liked him. He was always respectful, but I didn't have that fun. And then John and I kind of had a ton. He didn't talk to me for a couple of years. And it was funny. The reason he did not talk to me was somebody at USA Today wrote something about him he didn't like, and he thought it was me. And no matter what anybody would say, he thought it was somebody else. I mean, he thought it was me, not somebody else.

And he didn't speak to me. And then finally, a woman named Karen Bell found the article and she gave it to him and showed him. And then that we had this thought. And if you saw when John beat Cyril Ghosn, when he came back past the media, as he was going back to the locker room, he came up and he embraced me and he said, we've been on a long journey together and this is incredible. Right.

And I shook his hand. Excuse me. I shook his hand and patted him on the back and congratulated him. But I think John's the greatest fighter of all time. And I think his personality, you know, he's he's had a lot of bad things that he did in his life. Right. But I think he's an interesting person and we've just had that relationship. And so I got to say him.

Jax (54:33.457)
That's a good reason. That's a very, very good reason. Yeah, I have a certain reverence for John as well. Obviously, he's had his struggles, but as far as what he's done inside that cage, I feel like that's undeniable. Demetrius has done great things as well. And I definitely think that he should be recognized for what he's done, but John Jones is the best that's ever done it, and that's just what it is.

Kevin Iole (54:37.246)
I have a sort of reverence for John as well. Obviously, he's his struggles, but as far as what he's done inside the camp,

Kevin Iole (54:48.898)
Demetrius is doing great things as well. Of course. I definitely think that he should be recognized for what he's doing. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. I mean, the only argument, and I kid with Dana all the time, said, John's going to hate me because I'm saying he's not active right now, so he can't be number one currently, right? But when he fights, let's assume he wins. think most people will, you know, it's going to depend on how he looks.

But if he beats Steve A in impressive fashion, I think most people are going to vote for John number one.

Jax (55:24.251)
interesting because I actually have Alex Paheta number one.

Kevin Iole (55:27.808)
Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's not just talking about activity.

Jax (55:29.763)
My only reasoning is what you were just talking about, activity. Because it's really only out of three guys, in my opinion. And of those three guys, he's the one that's active. Islam has had his injuries. He's had the hand injury and hasn't been able to fight multiple times in a year recently. And of course, John Jones, he's been sidelined with his injury. Alex has injuries and he's fought through them.

Kevin Iole (55:55.898)
Yes. And you look who he's fought, right? mean, you all these champions that he's fought. I mean, it's a good argument, right?

Jax (55:57.757)
So I got to give it to him.

Jax (56:04.179)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (56:05.438)
You know, and if you have Alex number one, even after John defeat CPE, but I look at it and I go, John, this body of work, like once John fights, then, you know, that changes things because right now to me, he's been inactive and he's had one fight in four, you know, four and a half years and he hasn't fought when by the time his fight comes, it'll be, I think, 19 months between fights for him or 20 months.

Jax (56:27.655)
Thank

Kevin Iole (56:33.738)
And that's, you know, that is a long time, right? You know, in this sport, when people are fighting three and like Alex Brera fighting three and four times a year. So, but now we can evaluate him and we know what he's done. We, and then he beats Stipe, you know, if he beats Stipe, that's no guarantee, right? But if he beats Stipe, then we can evaluate him and put him in his proper place at that

Jax (56:37.318)
It is.

Jax (56:58.643)
So one last question, and I'll get you out of here on this one, and it's about John Jones. If John Jones beats Stipe, would you, let's say that you were his advisor, would you advise him to stick around to fight Tom Aspinall? Like is the juice worth the squeeze in fighting the up and comer? And I mean, I don't think it would damage his legacy overall, is who he is, but.

Kevin Iole (57:03.33)
It's about time.

Kevin Iole (57:11.266)
Would you, as a favor to your visit, I may ask, would you advise him to stick around if I tell him not to?

Kevin Iole (57:24.323)
No.

Jax (57:27.803)
Like if he beats Tom Aspinall, then what? Like how does that really, what does that do?

Kevin Iole (57:34.944)
Well, here's what I would say. Number one, this is a business. And if he beats Stipe and he fights Aspinall, that is going to be a massive, massive, massive fight. And because the sport is growing, I think it'll be bigger than the proposed Jones and Gano fight would have been at UFC 286 that they were talking about when Francis decided to sign with the PFL.

Jax (58:00.691)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Iole (58:05.192)
So I don't know what his body feels like, right? He knows that I don't know that his manager would know that. So I don't have the information to give him right now, but based on just, hey, don't you don't want to look like you're ducking anybody. Number one and number two, you've been great for so long and now cap it off with this massive, you know, heavyweight championship fight that would, you know,

end all doubts of who was the greatest, right? I don't think there are any doubts no matter what happens to John the rest of the way, but it would end all doubts and it would pay him. You know, I'm going to guess that fight would pay, you know, they were supposedly offering Francis 12 million in that fight. I'm not sure what they offered John, but it had to be in that same vicinity. I got to think it's going to be more than that, right? And so that's going to be a big payday for him. I think it'd be hard to turn that down.

Jax (59:05.459)
Yeah, no, that's interesting. I I do think that it would be a big payday. I don't know. I guess maybe it's just like, you know, you fight this dude and what if you lose? was it worth it? But I mean, that's a big payday. It might be worth it. It might actually be worth it. So again, I definitely appreciate you jumping on and sticking around for so long, Is there anything that you want to say to the Making the Walk people before we get out of here?

Kevin Iole (59:22.666)
Of course.

Kevin Iole (59:34.614)
Well, I just appreciate everybody. If you could check out my social media, I'm Kevin Ion X. I'm Kevin Ioli on Instagram, on YouTube and on Facebook. And if you just go to my website, as you see back there, keviniolli.com, I would really appreciate that.

Jax (59:52.677)
Awesome, awesome. So again, I appreciate it and yeah, till next time, y'all.

Kevin Iole (59:58.508)
Great stuff, Jax.