UFC 308: What if Holloway Loses? | Rankings DRAMA & More | S2 E18

In this bonus episode conversation with Christopher De Santiago from Sports Illustrated and Full Violence, we dive into UFC 308’s biggest questions: What’s next if Max Holloway takes a loss? From the impact on rankings to fighter recognition issues, we’re covering all the DRAMA surrounding UFC 308. Join us for insights, predictions, and everything you need to know leading up to fight night!

0:00 - Intro

1:00 - Thoughts on Pennington, Pena, and Harrison

8:04 - Thoughts on the UFC Rankings Saga

12:22 - Biggest Stories Heading into UFC 308

15:48 - What Happens if Max Loses?

23:56 - Where does Robert Whittaker sit on the MW Goat List?

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 1:00 Thoughts on Pennington, Pena, and Harrison
• 8:04 Thoughts on the UFC Rankings Saga
• 12:22 Biggest Stories Heading into UFC 308
• 15:48 What Happens if Max Loses?
• 23:56 Where does Robert Whittaker sit on the MW Goat List?

Transcript

Jax (00:01.975)
I'm here with my boy Christopher De Santiago from a variety of things, I would say he's primarily, would you say that Sports Illustrated, the MMA knockouts is kind of the banner that you fly the most?

Christopher De Santiago (00:18.102)
Yes, for sure. Sports Illustrated and Full Violence, are my two main ones right now.

Jax (00:24.347)
Yeah, full violence, you're like the social media guy for that.

Christopher De Santiago (00:30.408)
Yeah, so I started with them as a social media manager, but now I'm a project manager. So now I'm like helping run the day to day on the content over there.

Jax (00:39.749)
Man, it's crazy. It happened so fast. But congratulations on all that, man. I mean, you're really grinding, man. I can definitely see it.

Christopher De Santiago (00:43.81)
Yeah.

Christopher De Santiago (00:48.952)
Thank you so much and thank you so much for having me on the show, man.

Jax (00:52.455)
Of course, of course, anytime. So I wanted to jump into a few topics. One, for anybody that doesn't know, you did a really good interview with Raquel Pennington following her fight with Julianna Pena. And it made me curious as to how you see the division when it comes to those top three. Pennington.

Christopher De Santiago (01:06.712)
Thank you.

Jax (01:18.277)
Pena and Harrison. I mean, we saw that fight and a lot of us, I think most of us probably scored it for Raquel, but Pena is the one that walked out of there. But how do you see that whole thing shaking out? Considering that was a contentious decision, Dana thought that Pennington won, but obviously Harrison's probably gonna get the next shot. But how do you see this whole thing shaking out?

Christopher De Santiago (01:43.128)
Yeah. So from a business standpoint, I would say that Harrison, which is Penya's likely play the next title fight in the division. But from a merit standpoint, it's like, and from a competition standpoint as well. Like you said, I didn't agree with the decision. thought I gave rounds one, four and five to Pennington. I thought she did enough, just off the damage alone to retain the title. Don't agree with the decision.

That being said, feel like Pengton might be older rematch, given the work that she's done for the division. She had won her previous six fights. was a champion going in. She knocked her down, had the more definitive moments in the fight, in my opinion. And you know, what's the deal with Kayla Harrison? She's cut weight to 136 pounds twice in six months. I say.

put Harrison on the sidelines, let her recover, maybe give Pennington an instant rematch of Peña when her fights Harrison, when her of that fights Nunez. There's a lot of different ways that you can kind of tackle the situation, but I think given the result that we saw in the decision, I feel like the next fight should be Pennington versus Peña.

Jax (03:04.249)
Yeah, run it back. I feel like with Rocky, what's interesting about her is it seems like when she's in the fight, she grows within the fight. Like she gets more confident and you could see it in this fight and she won rounds four and five. But I also saw, and I saw the same thing against Bueno Silva, that she had opportunities to end the fight in.

her killer instinct doesn't switch on when I feel like the opportunity is there. Is that something that you saw or do you see it kind of differently?

Christopher De Santiago (03:42.072)
So I think with the Buenos Silvos, I believe that Pennington was pretty sick. She said that she was dealing with a flu during that week. So I think a lot of that kind of went into her performance and I feel like she kind of had like a flu game. She went in there, she did her best at the percentage that she was at and she got the decision. Not the most exciting or most impressive performance out of her.

Jax (03:59.578)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (04:11.911)
Yeah.

Christopher De Santiago (04:12.214)
But I think when it comes to her, you know, when it comes to having to win the fight, I feel like she did that under the worst circumstances. So I think in the penny of fight, I think she kind of showed that, hey, she wasn't the same fighter that she was back in January. She's kind of evolved. She kind of rises to the occasion, you know, whenever the challenges present themselves.

Jax (04:36.123)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would agree. mean, especially if she was sick, then I can understand it. But moving to Pena, obviously, and you kind of alluded to it, the fact that it's kind of good for business to have somebody that's so vocal, that's so polarizing be the one that walks away with the belt, whether she earned it or not.

And I agree that it's probably best for Harrison's health that she kind of chills because I mean that weight cut is a tough one. You could tell. But in her performance against Ketlin Vieta, did your stock on her go up or go down or was it about the same after that fight?

Christopher De Santiago (05:25.624)
So like, thought honestly, heading into that fight, I thought Harrison was going to have her own like way with her like completely. I thought it was going to be maybe 30, 27, 30, 26, something like that. I thought it was going to be kind of as dominant as the Holly home fight, but that wasn't the case. you know, and it's kind of hard to say how good is Kayla Harrison because she also alluded to health issues before the fight. She was hospitalized. We don't know how.

like what percentage that she was on five night compared to how Vieira was. So I do think that Harrison, you know, that performance probably isn't the best example, but at the same time, I still think she's better than most of these girls, especially on her best night. I do think she like, you know, given what I said about Pennington, I do believe Harrison might be the best Spanaway in the world right now, not named Amanda Nunez.

So I think her performance doesn't, her last performance doesn't do her any favors, but I think her next one will probably, you know, do her favors in the next one.

Jax (06:35.399)
Yeah, and I agree. I do think that she's the best Bantamweight in the world that's actively fighting. I'll say this. I'm one of the few people that believes that Amanda Nunez should just stay retired. Like, I understand that it would be an exciting fight and everything like that, but like, I'm kind of looking at it from a personal standpoint as far as like her as a person.

feel like there's not as much to prove coming back as one might think. Now, there's money. There is money. And if that's the goal, then, yeah, I guess you come back. And the outcome be damned. But if it's not more than, like, I feel like if it's money motivated, then we're going to get something similar to, not that she'll get knocked out like this, but we'll get a lackluster performance.

like we got from Volkonosky when he came back on short notice and it was money motivated. Like anytime the money is the motivation, I feel like you're not gonna get the best out of that person. And when you're fighting a Kayla Harrison that's ready to go, and I'm assuming it's Kayla Harrison at that point, like you better be motivated because she's gonna come motivated. That's a really tough fight.

Christopher De Santiago (07:40.802)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher De Santiago (07:55.608)
And I feel like Amanda Nunez, she's already lapped the division so many times already. There's not many fights I'm excited for, for her besides Kayla Harrison. I'm not excited for the Penny rematch. We, already saw what happened in the rematch at, you know, 50-43. That's, that's enough to, you know, for me to close the buck on that. Pennington rematch, I'm not sold on that. I think the Harrison fights the only one that makes sense. There's not really any.

Jax (08:10.247)
Okay.

Christopher De Santiago (08:23.828)
other opponents that make sense for Nunez. So I feel like, yeah, like you said, she doesn't have anything else to prove. Maybe some more money in the bank, but you know, I don't think it's worth it.

Jax (08:34.385)
Yeah, that's about it. Not at all, not at all. But pivoting, one of the things that's kind of been a hot discussion this week is the rankings. Obviously, Dana White went on his rant about the rankings. He released that one social media post when he was talking about what was wrong with him and then had the conversation with Kevin Ayoly at the Dana White's Continue Series press conference talking about the rankings.

What are your thoughts on the rankings? Like, do you think that there is broken as Dana makes it out to seem or do you think that it should even be, you know, something that they're looking at to fix?

Christopher De Santiago (09:15.606)
Yeah. So if the rankings, I just feel like they're really outdated in terms of, like the people that we have running them have been on the board for the last, what, like maybe eight years or something like that, something like that. And a lot of those outlets, I mean, they don't even cover MMA like exclusively or, you know, even often that's what I've heard at least. I think we just need a new system. my, my solution would just.

to be getting new media members, get the MMA junkies, MMA fighting for the world to kind of do that. People who know that what they're talking about, not to crap on the current rankings panel, but I would like to see a better panel because the rankings now just don't really make sense to me. mean, Holloway should have been at least top three lightweight after he beat Gagey, but that wasn't the case. So I think we just need

more new media members to switch out the current panel. Keep switching it out until you know Dana or until it starts to make sense for the rankings you know.

Jax (10:21.231)
Yeah, no, mean, that's that example to me is far more egregious than the Khalil Roundtree situation. Max beating Justin Gaethje, who was what number three at the time and coming in at number nine at the time. Like that doesn't even make sense. I mean, and he beat him convincingly and then knocked him out. He already had to fight one and then knocked him out just for fun.

Like, so to me that immediately puts you top five. But I agree, the, I think one of the names that was listed there was like the Wrestling Observer.

Christopher De Santiago (10:48.909)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (11:02.555)
And don't even think that it's talking about actual freestyle wrestling. I think it's actually talking about WWE, AEW, that type of wrestling. I'm like, you shouldn't have a hand in the rankings if that's what you're watching. Nothing against them, but that's not this. So yeah, I agree, switching those out, finding more reputable sources is a major part of it.

Christopher De Santiago (11:09.976)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (11:27.399)
But I have a whole plan, I have a video that I'm working on for that on what I think that they should do, but I think that the ranking system is broken and I hope that he doesn't go to AI to try to do it because I don't think that's the answer either. I think that somebody did it out in the...

the audience there, one of the reporters, they still had Alex, when they did it with AI, they still had Volkonovsky as number one. So I'm like, that's, you know that's not right. Yeah.

Christopher De Santiago (12:05.482)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and like I just saw like I mean they're getting slightly better in the rankings like Charles Johnson It took him four wins in a row to finally get a ranking of number 15 like that should have been Given to him at least maybe like two fights ago in my opinion. I'll let four I mean come on just give the man a ranking. It doesn't make sense

Jax (12:22.532)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (12:27.353)
Yeah, it's bizarre, dude. It really is. But I don't know. mean, they said that they had somebody coming in to meet with them to figure it out.

We'll see what they come out with. I'm sure people are still going to have issues with it, but as long as we get a little bit closer to something that's more of a consensus, I would be okay with it. I don't expect that everybody's going to agree. It's just not, it's impossible for everybody to agree on, okay, this is the rankings. There's no denying all of these rankings. It's always going to be, you know, somebody thinking something different.

Christopher De Santiago (12:58.658)
Yeah, most definitely, just, I Dana, Wyatt and, you know, the UFC, I hope they stay away from doing their own rankings because like, you know, like, for example, we might get John Jones, number one pound for pound if that's the case, but I think they'll probably use a third party to handle their rankings.

Jax (13:17.285)
hope so. really hope so. So we got in a few days, we got one of the biggest fights of the year. Headlining UFC 308. I know you're super excited for the Max Holloway, Ilya Toporya fight, but but kind of what are your thoughts kind of spell that out for me? Like, why are you so excited about that fight?

Christopher De Santiago (13:39.832)
So I think this is the biggest featherweight title fight we've seen since McGregor vs. Aldo. You know, obviously, like, the next one's always the biggest one, But when you look at the momentum, both men have going for them. mean, Holloway off of that gorgeous gagey knockout in April. Toporia and, you know, the knockout over Volkonovsky, the first man ever to beat him at 145 pounds.

You know, it's like the immovable object, which is the unstoppable unstoppable force right here with this fight and the momentum that they have going for them. I mean, it's through the roof and you can sell the fight better. you know, I wish the fight was tomorrow because I can't wait for it. I think this is a very massive fight in terms of it kind of determines if Tupori is the next guy.

Jax (14:12.145)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher De Santiago (14:36.376)
You know, at 145, if he's gonna, this is like a make or break fight for him in terms of, is he gonna be a dominant champion? Is he gonna be, you know, edging close to that greatest of all time conversation later down the line? Or will Holloway stop him and become a two time champ? I think that's, you know, kind of the storylines going into this fight and they can be more anticipated for this one.

Jax (15:01.863)
Absolutely. I think it's just what you said. It's the momentum that's going into this fight for both of them. know, it feels like nowadays it's getting less often that the challenger is somebody that everybody agrees with is the rightful challenger.

Like there always seems to be a challenger that's going in and people are like, I don't know if he should be the one fighting for the belt. But like in this case, we know Max is the rightful challenger for this belt. And Ilya coming off of that, know, sparking Alexander Volkonovsky the way that he did creates that seed of doubt like.

I don't know if Max is gonna be able to get through this. You got this young, hungry dude that is taking hits and doing it stylistically. The dude is like, he's got another level of style that we don't see, that we haven't seen really since McGregor, to be honest, the way that he carries himself. And so I feel like that part.

Christopher De Santiago (16:03.64)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (16:05.935)
plays into it and then like you said, the future of the division and the way that this affects the greatest of all time conversation when it comes to the Featherweight division is so monumental. So it's like, yeah, there's so many things that you can write from this. So many stories that can come out of this. If Ilya wins, then he's already set on his path to do.

something that we haven't seen in the featherweight division since Max or Alex, you know, beating somebody who's an all time great and doing it and doing it back to back like like he would be doing it is pretty impressive and he'll be right on his way to becoming one of the greats himself. But which leads me into another question. If Max loses, which for me, this is what makes me nervous about this fight, like

You said you wish it was happening tomorrow. I almost wish we had another week. I'm nervous. But if Max loses, what then? What do you think that he should do if he does lose?

Christopher De Santiago (17:07.672)
Thank

Christopher De Santiago (17:17.674)
So I believe this is his third attempt to become a two-time champ. He's already dropped two in a row. You know, he's dropped the last two fights after losing the title to Volkonovsky. To clear it out, just about everybody else in the division, not named Volkonovsky. I feel like with the BMF title status still being with him, win or lose,

I feel like lightweight is the next move for him. I really liked that Dan Hucker fight for him. I think it's a BMF title fight. when the loser draw against Chukwuria, you know, there's so many fights for him at lightweight. feel like, I think the Dan Hucker fight makes sense. I think the, the Conor McGregor fight could even make sense. You know, at some point, I don't know if Conor will fight again. I believe so, but I think Max has definitely got some options, at lightweight.

Chandler wins, he could possibly beat her himself, maybe Olivera. There's no sort of fun fights for Max Holloway. So I think maybe something fun at lightweight, maybe Dan Hucker, know, Connor, Charles, Michael Chandler, something like that.

Jax (18:30.213)
Yeah, that makes sense. He still has options. That's beating Justin Gaethje gave him was all kinds of options, win or lose. And he's still young in the game, even though he's been in UFC for over a decade, he's still only 32 years old. And that's kind of crazy to say. He's had a whole career and now he's about to have another one, you know, as far as like the back end of it. So, I mean, if he does win though.

If he does win, do you think that he fights Volkanovsky straight away? Or does he go to the UFC and say, hey, look, I've done a lot for y'all. I've been in this division. I've held this belt. Let me go and chase immortality, see if I can beat Islam Makachev.

you know, obviously Islam is supposed to fight arming. So it would be a little bit down the line and it could be arming that wins. Who knows? But would you, if you were Max consider, let me go and see if I can do this and become the first person with three belts, even though it's a BMF, he would still have three belts.

Christopher De Santiago (19:42.466)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I hold Holloway in a high regard in terms of like, I think he's maybe top five biggest superstar in the UFC right now, especially like if he were to beat Sephora, I mean, he's probably top three, maybe behind Connor, Pereira, you know, people like that. I feel like...

I feel like there's a of interest in the Volkonovsky and Lopez fight. think the UFC will probably end up doing that fight for the interim title in February. I know it might not make all the sense in the world, but I feel like if they do interim title, then Holloway could do as he pleases in the lightweight division, something like that. That's what they did for Volkonovsky whenever he went up, they made the interim title for Yair.

fundamentalist return. think they do something similar like that, but I guess it depends on what Max wants. If I was Max personally, personally, I would defend the BMF title against somebody at lightweight.

Jax (20:48.281)
If I were Max, I'm going up to whoever wins out of Islam and arming to fight for that third belt. That's what I would want. I would want that because I feel like if otherwise he would have to fight another top five person to get to the belt. And I feel like I would just be subtracting the fight for him. You know, like I would rather just go and fight for the belt rather than.

let me fight Dan Hooker and then fight for the belt. Like Dan Hooker is not an easy fight to go through. So like I would rather just let me just shoot right to the belt if I can and you know use the opportunity to see if I can do something magical because he's already done something magical earlier in the year you know why not see if he could do it again. That's what I would do I mean but I've never heard from him that

that those are his goals. He kind of keeps some of that stuff close to his vest. I know that he's always wanted to get that Volkonoski fight back, but that he mentioned that often when Volk was the champ. But now that Volk isn't the champ, I don't hear him saying that he wants that fight back necessarily. So I don't know. It's interesting. It's interesting. But he's got a tough test right now to get through this killer in Toporia.

I don't know, I don't know. But who are you favoring going into this?

Christopher De Santiago (22:16.824)
So I've been kind of going back and forth on this pick for like weeks At first I was leaning towards Holloway a few days ago I was leaning towards his Coria I think right now as of currently I'm leaning towards Holloway I feel like his Chan really You know, I feel like his Chan's a really big factor in this fight because Coria's power is just insane Coria's really good at being the hammer

but we haven't really seen him beat a nail in his fights. I, and we haven't seen him really go through deep water and Holloway is somebody that I could see dragging him to deep water in the, in the championship rounds, especially for rounds four and five. We saw him there against Josh Emmett, but Josh Emmett didn't pose too much problems against him in those later rounds. So I think Holloway, he does have a variety of strikes. He's gonna

have to watch out for the leg kicks, the power shots, the slick boxing. I do think that Torrey has a speed advantage and maybe the better hands in the pocket, but I think Holloway's chin, his cardio, his kicks, his variety of strikes. I'm leaning towards Holloway just by like a hair in his thigh. think Holloway probably gets it done maybe in championship rounds or maybe a decision.

Jax (23:41.735)
So I've talked to two people that fought Ilya Toporia. I just did an interview a couple of days ago with Josh Amit. And I did an interview last month with Damon Jackson. And I asked them both about the fight and how they were favoring it. Josh said kind of what you just said as far as the speed, the youth, all the tools that Toporia has in his bag.

He said he kinda sees it going to Tupori's way, but he wouldn't be surprised if Holloway figured it out. But when I Damon Jackson, he immediately said, Holloway, he said, Holloway's too smart. He said he's going to figure it out. He's like, it's not that Tupori doesn't have.

you know, all of those tools. He definitely has all those tools. He can do so many things well. He's like, but Holloway seems so much, he's so knowledgeable beyond his years because of the fact that he's been in UFC for so long and fighting top level competition for so long. So he actually, I mean, immediately said Holloway. So I don't know, man. I'm personally...

It's hard for me not to go in my gut and go with, you know, how I feel, my heart. And, you know, I lean Holloway because of that. But I've seen so much material now, you know, if I weak. It's almost like they're trying to convince me to go to Poria, but I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm going to go Holloway. I'm going stick with him. But yeah, there's a there's another fight, another.

Christopher De Santiago (25:22.68)
Thank

Yeah, for sure.

Jax (25:32.369)
fight with title implications on the card. And it is the Robert Whitaker against Hamza Chamayev fight. And hopefully, we're just a few days out, hopefully this fight sticks together. But there's still things that can happen, so we don't know. But specifically about Robert Whitaker, I feel like there's a lot of coverage and a lot of conversation about Hamza Chamayev, obviously because of all the things that surround him.

the circumstances that have happened. But for Robert Whitaker, it's an interesting situation where he's almost in the same situation that Max was in, where he's beaten all these contenders. But when it comes to the top one or two guys, he's lost to Strickland. I mean, not Strickland, he's lost to DDP and lost to Izzy.

But with the win, this should put him right there in the conversation for the title. But all time overall, he's had an amazing career. But where do you think that a win over Hamza Chamayev puts him as far as his career compared to other middleweights?

Christopher De Santiago (26:45.792)
Yeah, so I think, you know, I think we talked a little bit off camera about this, about, you know, kind of putting them as like a Mount Rushmore kind of thing. You know, I do think Whitaker's maybe like a top three middleweight. I only put Silva and Adesanya, I think, above Whitaker in terms of the resume and the consistency this guy has had for the last decade or so.

is just insane. know, he's taken out wave after wave of middleweight contenders. He's only lost to Adesani and Drikis who's the current champ just about. And I feel like, you know, that consistency and that longevity has to count for something. And while he hasn't held the belts for a while, I feel like that's gotta mean something, you know? So I definitely put him at top three right now at middleweight.

Jax (27:42.075)
Yeah, it's hard to even think of other fighters that you could possibly put above him. Maybe Rich Franklin. I wouldn't put Michael Bissping above him. I put him below him only because I feel like beating Dan Henderson as a title defense doesn't really help your...

Christopher De Santiago (27:52.012)
Mm-hmm.

Jax (28:04.005)
It doesn't hurt you, mean, it's a win. But it doesn't really help you that much. And the way that GSP kinda came out of nowhere and just kinda destroyed your life, that kinda puts you down a little bit lower to me. But I think I might agree, man. He might be the third best middleweight of all time, maybe.

Christopher De Santiago (28:04.589)
Yeah.

Christopher De Santiago (28:25.792)
Yeah, yeah, I don't think this being like with, you know, credit to him for winning the belt and everything about defending the title against Stan Henderson, who was ranked maybe like what 14 at the time, 46 years old, you know, like he shouldn't have been in that position in the first place, Henderson to get the title rematch. And, you know, I feel like this thing should have fought Romero. What the Whitaker fight was supposed to happen about injuries.

Jax (28:37.435)
Yeah, he's pretty low.

Christopher De Santiago (28:52.373)
you know, took place. Whitaker fought everybody that they put in front of him. yeah, I would definitely have Whitaker kind of above every of the other former champions of that division. Most of them.

Jax (29:05.083)
Yeah, yeah, true, true. So yeah, man, I'm excited about the card. But before we get out of here, what do you have going on that you can let people know about?

Christopher De Santiago (29:19.576)
Yeah, so I got confirmed for the Mike Tyson Jake Paul fight next month. So yeah, it's going to be good. Going to go for SI, which is funny. I'm glad that you're reminding me. I need a book off of the hotel and stuff for that. But yeah, nothing much for travel. I'm looking at next year for UFC events and stuff right now, the current schedule. I'm like, okay, maybe I kind of want to go to some other different places than Vegas.

Jax (29:35.313)
Yeah.

Christopher De Santiago (29:49.802)
Again, so like, yeah, I'm going to scope out the first quarter of events for next year. Hopefully they come to our home state of Texas, in the first quarter. but yeah, let's, let's hope for it.

Jax (29:58.375)
That'd be nice.

Jax (30:02.277)
Yeah, they come to anywhere in the vicinity, can see if I can try to argue with the UFC to get some credentials. Yeah, for sure, man. But yeah, appreciate it, man. Appreciate you jumping on.

Christopher De Santiago (30:10.136)
Yes sir, yes sir, that would be awesome man.

Christopher De Santiago (30:17.482)
Awesome, well thanks so much for having me and have a great day, okay?

Jax (30:20.967)
All right, you too,